Woah! Michel Odent on Men at Births…
This was sent to me a couple of weeks ago, but got moved to the back burner by the Time magazine article…but, here it goes: A top obstetrician on why men should NEVER be at the birth of their child (Thank you Carolyn and Claire!) I have many many thoughts, most of which I’ll be getting to in the next few comics, but here’s one: I can make the leap with him about questioning the validity of MEN being at births, but apparently he is using the term Men to mean FATHER. why is he not making the leap to include ALL men? including the Male OB/GYNs? Including himself? I would think that the father of the baby has more of a right to be there than the Dr. who has only met the mother 4 times, for pete’s sake! And if MEN in the form of Ob/gyns hadn’t started attending births the role of the man might have stayed unchanged through time: holding the space, protecting the quiet, boiling the water, just within a helpful, but waiting range. But if there’s going to be a male doctor in the space, why not the father? And the inverse must be true, if not the father, than why still the Doctor?
This is Michel Odent who has attended thousands of births assumably bringing his adrenaline with him, and now we find out he wouldn’t attend his own wife’s births?! Harumph. My father can’t imagine being at a birth, my husband can’t imagine missing it.These are both caring men in different cultural contexts. Remind me to give them both a hug because neither of these men would ever be so arrogant as to believe they should sit in on OTHER women’s births. Oh yes, Ladies, I believe Dr. Odent just crossed my line ;o).
Also, and I’ll be talking about this one directly, what the heck is up with THIS throw away line:
“Of course, it would not be possible for women to give birth alone.”?
huh? wow. okay. How about you try telling that to the millions of women who have!
My thoughts are running away with me, I best get my sharpie pens!
Love,
Heather
This Musing is totally related to this Musing: Michel Odent Didn’t Write the Article!
gonzopants said,
April 28, 2008 @ 11:29 am
my husband couldn’t imagine missing either of our sons’ births, either! and the doula I had for my home birth was a man studying to be a midwife & he was AWESOME. I think it does a huge disservice to pigeonhole men this way. It’s sexist, at best.
Tamsin said,
April 28, 2008 @ 12:24 pm
Also, did I miss/misunderstand something when reading, or did he completely contradict himself?
About 3/4 way down the article:
“My partner did not know it, but I had given her the exceptionally rare, but ideal situation in which to give birth: she felt secure, she knew the midwife was minutes away and I was downstairs, yet she had complete privacy and no one was watching her.”
So the ideal situation is one in which the mother is completely private & no-one is watching? Sounds awfully like that’s giving birth alone to me.
sapphire_chan said,
April 28, 2008 @ 1:46 pm
The article wasn’t written by Odent.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=881682 has some discussions about the actual nature of the way that DailyMail (which is apparently sort of the UK’s version of the Enquirer) handled the interview and such.
Check out:
http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/fatherpart.asp
for Odent’s real words on the subject.
The article sounds nothing like Odent because it *isn’t* Odent.
sapphire_chan said,
April 28, 2008 @ 1:49 pm
Question assumptions. Take nothing for granted. Do what works for you. Be prepared to find that what you thought would work for you isn’t what you need.
wiffersnapper said,
April 28, 2008 @ 4:30 pm
“Ask the experts. They’ll tell you what can’t be done, and why. Then do it.”- Robert Heinlein, the Diaries of Lazarus Long.
It is and has always been my opinion that the woman should have whoever SHE wants at her birth. Some women are, by nature, more private than others. My dad wasn’t at my birth, or the birth of my daughters. He wouldn’t have felt comfortable, and I wouldn’t put him in that situation. Had he been a different sort of person, the kind who could be there and be supportive but not intrusive, I’d have been happy to have him. My mother is a control freak- you could not have PAID me to have her at my births. My husband was at both of our daughters’ births, and he WAS supportive and not intrusive. I could not have done it without him. That’s who I am, and how our relationship is set up.
Everyone is different. Every woman should have the right to have whomever she feels comfortable with at her own birth. Period.
esper_d said,
April 29, 2008 @ 12:59 am
Now that I think about it, there were no males at my birth either!
I had my mom, doula, best friend, and midwife!
(YES I’m a single mom)
Oh wait, I totally take that back! My baby (a male) was there!!!
Raquel Lazar-Paley said,
April 29, 2008 @ 7:20 am
I emailed Dr. Odent about that Daily Mail article, and posted his response on my blog: http://www.consciouswoman.org/2008/04/28/michel-odent-on-men-at-childbirth/.
mamaof5 said,
April 29, 2008 @ 7:38 am
I read the second one also… I think he is being pompous. Both of my grandmothers gave birth in the 40’s and 50’s. No men (aka fathers) allowed and SERIOUS interventions were done (IE Twilight sleep, high forceps, etc), all male doctors and NO midwives, then could not see their babies but once every 4 hours. Skip to my mom’s births in the 70’s. .. my mom has her children with little pain meds (a saddle block) and my dad is right there holding her hand and loving her. Now hop over to the 90’s (and on) and I have my kids with midwives, dh catching the babies and then a year ago I went solo… with DH there. It was amazing, powerful, beautiful, and then man I love most in the world was right there.
I think if the couple decides that the birth will be better with out dh, then he should stay out… I think if the mom wants to birth alone she should have that option (even in a hospital). I don’t think you can pin the dad’s being at the births as the cause of the reason women now have so many interventions. I think it is money, time and people being power hungry and women having lost or given up or had their power stollen from them by men acting ike they know what is best for a body they will never have. I think it is like Fruad’s “penis envy” it isn’t penis envy it is creation envy. Not being able to give birth so they try and control it… but just like all nature it can’t really be controlled, so they really “f” it up by all the crap they do now. And we all fall for it… “Thank god I was at the hospital because A, B, and C happened. Thank god my doctor was there because I needed a “C” section, thank god because the cord was around her neck…” We forget that it is like when you take a pill instead of eating your fruits and vegetables… it is more then just the parts that we know about that make the food good for you, it is it all working together and then you add attitude (how you feel when eating) that makes it work in your body the way it should. Birth is like that too. When allowed to progress like it should it works… when allowed to go thru the stages, taking as long as needed when not forced or stressed the baby comes out and things work out. It is when we screw with it that stuff goes wrong. And we have been sold a bill of goods. We don’t believe that any more. Because I can tell you someone will comment on this and say if they had not been in the hospital and had their wonderful doctor there they would have died. We don’t want to think that maybe we have been played… that even female doctors and midwives have also been played… they have bought the fear, the sell it to the moms and we all have to deal with it.
heather in tucson
nak
sheepdoc said,
April 29, 2008 @ 1:23 pm
I haven’t had a chance to read the links. I did read Dr. Odent’s books, The farmer and the Obstetrician and The Caesarean. I didn’t agree with him all fathers should be excluded - but I do see his point. There is blood and often in our society pain and screaming. This causes a man (or anyone) who isn’t used to this to tense up and to be scared. I had a lot of my own mental issues at my first birth but I’m sure my husband’s fear and terror helped slow it down too. Had we had a decent doula or a midwife who deigned to do something other than briefly sweep into the room every 2-3 hours to threaten, drug and humiliate maybe he would have been reassured.
I do see plenty of c/s happen because the husband’s are “protecting” their wives from going through “that nonsense again.” I hear it verbatim a lot.
I think part of Dr. Odent’s point is its already tough enough “deprograming” women from our societies neurosis that until we have access to authentic midwives we can’t begin to help dads get past their fear.
Also, Dr. Odent in the things I’ve read he does say that he no longer feels it is appropriate to have male midwives. He hires himself out as a midwife these days - NOT AN OB. In his particular case it would be ridiculous to throw out all his talent and experience. He just wouldn’t subject more women in the future to the learning curve it takes for a man to learn to be a good midwife.
PS - As for cords. My friend was told by her aunt (thankfully after she (friend) had her baby at home) that her son had come out with the cord wrapped around his neck 7 times! The first anyone knew (hospital vaginal delivery) that there was a problem was after she pushed him out! So, next time someone says babies can’t come out with X# of cord wraps tell them if its less than 8 times they are wrong and you can prove it!
mamaof5 said,
April 29, 2008 @ 2:52 pm
I was using the cord as a “reason” some families I know have given for having a c-section. I have had 5 children and all have had the cord around their necks. It just happens. It is part of a natural birth.
Heather in Tucson
typeogirl999 said,
April 29, 2008 @ 6:01 pm
What a dork (Odent).
BusyBee said,
April 30, 2008 @ 1:15 am
>> why is he not making the leap to include ALL men? including the Male OB/GYNs? Including himself?
As I understand he does not attend the births of his clients. He usually keeps company to the father and Odent’s partner (doula) attends the birth. He only examines the baby after the birth (and mom I suppose).
Paula said,
April 30, 2008 @ 6:42 am
Wow! Men should never attend the birth? Perhaps non-spousal (and I don’t mean you have to be married, just committed) men shouldn’t be there, but I just gave birth to my third child, at home, attended by only my husband…it was the most amazing experience of my life, and my husband declared it to be the most intense bonding experience of our entire 12 year marriage. The labor lasted 3 hours from start to finish, no tears/stitches. That compared to the birth of my first child in a hospital - 30 hours, stalled labor, augmented with pitocin, pain unlike anything I can possibly describe, a dozen internal monitors screwed into my arriving son’s scalp (they kept falling out), vacuum delivery, plenty of tearing and stitches, and my atheist husband on his knees next to my bed sobbing and praying to God that his wife wouldn’t die. A nightmare I swore that I or my family would never go through again. Thank goodness I found two lovely midwives to help us through our second birth in the peace and safety of our own home. The third child came so quickly that the midwife arrived only in time to catch (didn’t even have time to put on gloves). I’m certain that third labor was so smooth because my husband was my only labor attendant.